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"Negotiation in your Travel Business. Necessary? Yes!"

Roslyn Ranse: Hi everybody. Welcome back to the Travel Agent Achievers Podcast. I'm Ros, your host and today I am joined by a very special guest, somebody who I admire greatly and who I've been watching behind the scenes for a number of years now. Desperate to get her on. I would love to welcome Glin Bayley from The Value Negotiator. 

Now before Glin actually jumps in, I just want to tell you a little bit about her because she is so amazing. Glin is a seasoned commercial leader with over 17 years in commercial finance at some of the world's leading blue chip companies. She now focuses her energy, however, on developing leaders to drive performance and create value for their organisations by being better negotiators, which is why I've got her in today. Now prior to starting her own business, which is called the value negotiator, Glin was a senior consultant for a global negotiation consulting firm. Did you even know that these things existed? I didn't until I met Glin. She has trained and coached senior buying and sales executives from organisations, many of these whom you will know such as Woolworths, JB Hi Fi, Unilever, LendLease, Goodyear, Fujifilm, ConocoPhillips, and this is just to name a few. Now, this is training their teams on how to be more effective in commercial negotiations. 

Now I've brought the wonderful Glin in today because as travel advisors and travel professionals, we are often putting ourselves in the negotiation process, not only with suppliers, wholesalers and the likes behind the scenes, but also with our clients and consumers as well. So welcome, welcome. Welcome Glin to the Travel Agent Achievers podcast. Thank you so much for being here.

Glin Bayley: Well, you are so welcome. And what a lovely, well delivered intro. Thank you.

Roslyn Ranse: It's so great to have you here. Now I've known you for a few years now. And every time I have met you, I've always taken away some beautiful pieces, and nuggets of information and things that I can implement into my own business and life as well. So you didn't know some of these things that we're going to talk about today. But I just wanted to say thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and expertise, because it's not something that I actually realised was available to, you know, the, the individual humans out there, I thought this was just for big business.

Glin Bayley: Now, well, this is the thing. Negotiation is something we do daily, whether it's with our families at home, trying to get the kids to clean up or go to bed on time, whether it's with our partners around the chores that needs to be done, whether it's for their employers for our salary negotiations, and, you know, opportunities for development and creating the careers we want, or as business owners, whether it's positioning ourselves more effectively. So our customers and our consumers understand that value proposition. And then with bigger businesses, it's the complexity of the deals that will be negotiated when when you've got millions and billions of dollars worth of purchasing power and how effectively you want that managed. So negotiations, absolutely in everything we do on a daily basis. But I would agree that unless you're exposed to the world of being educated in negotiation, the common way most people learn negotiation is on the job in life, trial and error, trying to figuring out what figure out what works, what doesn't work. And sadly, that's, that's the majority. But it's also the most expensive and the most time consuming way to learn a skill that would pay you back time and time and time and time. Again, if you knew the foundation principles or how to operate in negotiation right from the outset. So I do think it's, yeah, it's definitely a superpower that I'm grateful that I've developed and nurtured over time. But I would agree like prior to being exposed to negotiation in my career, I would never have known that these things even existed.

Roslyn Ranse: So how did you get into this space?

Glin Bayley: I was trained in commercial negotiation when I was in finance. So I worked for large global corporates in the finance space in commercial roles. So helping at the time, I worked for a brand business, selling bread to retailers in the UK and working with the sales team that were developing the deals and part of that was needing to be trained in commercial negotiation skills because we were having meetings with the retailers with the likes of Tesco, Sainsbury's, etc. And their buying team and we needed to be able to negotiate As a team, the best value for our business a bread business at the time and also to create value for Sainsbury's, Tesco and the like, as well. So I learned thankfully very early on negotiation skills that then I was able to apply throughout my career. But probably more so at an unconscious level at that time. And then yeah, and then refound the passion again, when I was headhunted to work for a global negotiation consulting firm a few years back to, to bring that commercial experience and delivery and training to the market in Australia, which was much smaller than the market in the UK at the time, which is where I was,

Roslyn Ranse: Yeah, so coming out to Australia, I mean, I, I just look at you and go, Oh, my gosh, I would never want to get into a debate with you, and try and negotiate something because you know, all the ins and outs, and I feel as though I'm very much behind the scenes and my back against the wall, like how would I even do this?So for you coming out to Australia, did you also have to, like negotiate that opportunity as well? And say, “well, no, this is what I will bring to the table.” And like, what may you be back here?

Glin Bayley: Yeah, it's funny, because even even in the corporate career I was in, I've been with the company I'd worked for at the time, nine years. So I'd had credibility, I'd had experience with them. And I made a move to Australia for personal reasons, my marriage had ended. So it was time for a new chapter, a new life and a fresh start. So there was some emotional empathy, I guess, from my employer at the time, but also the opportunity to recognize the value that I bring to the, to the market here. So I did take a transfer opportunity to a role in finance at the time, in, in the same business, or be it a more junior role. And you look at it, and you think, at the time, it's what what are the levers that you want to negotiate on. And for me, it was, I wanted to be out in Sydney, and by the Harbour Bridge, by the end of 2015. So time was was important, you know, I made a commitment to myself, I was happy to stay in the organisation and still work in finance. And as long as I was able to do work I loved, it didn't really matter whether it was a more senior role or, or a sideways step. And actually, it was a sideways step, but a much smaller role. So it felt felt more junior. And for me, the support was, you know, what I wanted to negotiate to support was around getting the visa sorted, and managing that initial transition over so being put up in accommodation to allow me to find my feet, and then having my my possessions transported over. So all of the things that were valuable to me could offset the fact that I'd taken a more junior role or, you know, a salary position that wasn't incrementally more for the fact that I got to have this new life experience. 

And I think, when you think about negotiating, negotiating, it happens all the time, you're always making assessments of where value is for you. But once you've been trained in it, you do it more consciously, because you're you're actually looking to go, Well, how can I create value for both, you know, myself, my employer, my partner, my, my colleagues, my customers, so that we create a more of a, a win together mindset, because negotiation isn't often seen as winning together. It's exactly how most people observe it when you said, “Oh, I feel like I've got my back up against the wall. I'm being negotiated.”

Roslyn Ranse: So much more than I do. You're coming into this with all the skills and I feel so we're ill-equipped.

Glin Bayley: Yes. And I think that's how most people would feel. And there's a way through that, for sure. And I'm happy to help. So ask me anything.

Roslyn Ranse: Oh, my goodness, I just love that you took that leap of faith. There's nothing like leaving a completely, like to go from the UK to Australia. Like that is a big leap, both personally and then professionally. 

Glin Bayley: Yeah.

Roslyn Ranse: I mean, we're, we're very different out here, and.

Glin Bayley:  Very. 

Roslyn Ranse: Yeah.

Glin Bayley: In a good way. 

Roslyn Ranse: You have settled in beautifully. And I love that what you said there about, you knew exactly what you wanted. So would I be correct in assuming that you started with the end in mind to say, “Well, this is what where I'm at right now. And this is, you know, my life, but this is what I want.”  

Glin Bayley: Yes. 

Roslyn Ranse: Starting with the end in mind and then working your way backwards to negotiate that?

Glin Bayley: Yeah, it's alignment. You've got to be really clear on the end goal. Where are you heading? And if I'm bringing some of my spiritual beliefs into this, because I know that people don't normally associate spirituality and negotiation together, but they it's all about connection to that, that end objective and being so aligned that there's no split energy, you know, so I was so certain that I wanted to come to Australia, that there was no amount of, you know, well, “What if we sent you to the states? Or what if we send me somewhere else? Would that be an option?” Like, “no, it's Australia,” it's really clear. And here's the timeline, “I'm giving you 12 months, that's, that's what we're working to.” And with that, I had actually come up with five different ways of how it was going to happen. Like, the first way was the best way with the company I was, we're getting all of the support being transitioned into a new role, you know, the easier of all of the options. And then the last way was, well, you know, there was a number of options in between. But the last day was, well, I'll quit my job. And I'll, I'll come out here and I'll figure out how to get a visa and I'll, you know, I'll still be at Sydney Harbour Bridge, by the end of 2015, I might not have a secure role or options, but there was still a path to getting out to Australia and making that and objective a reality. 

And, and I look back now, and I didn't, I definitely didn't approach it as a negotiation or thinking about the planning of it in that way at the time. But if I'm to overlay, just that example, being really clear about the outcome I wanted, and then working with the people in my business, to facilitate the conversations and influence the right people to be able to help me bring it to life. We're absolutely negotiation skills that I hadn't consciously realised I was applying at that time.

Roslyn Ranse: There also sounds like you have the confidence to verbalise what you actually want. And I want to touch on some of the fears that people have regarding negotiation. So we talked about having you back to the wall, you know, other people know more or finding your voice in actually what it is that you want. Yeah, hearing you say that. Just, I again, I look at you and go, oh, my gosh, you're so confident like is that? But is that something that is a self worth thing that I might be thinking and going, oh, you know, I don't want to use my voice to speak up or somebody will say no. So what are some of the fears around negotiating? That you think, you deal with hundreds of people?

Glin Bayley:  Yeah, I think there's, there's a number of things. It's something that you said earlier about, don't want to get into a debate, right? Because people and this is a thing people think of negotiation as a debate. But when I look at debating what are people trying to prove when it comes to debating like, here's my perspective.  

Roslyn Ranse: Right.

Glin Bayley: Exactly. People want to prove that they're right. So debating and negotiating are actually two very different things. But if people think negotiation is a debate, then they're going to take a stance, and they're going to go, this is my position, that's the right position. And I've got to convince the other party that my position is right, and you're in this constant push pull, like you come to my site. No, you come to my site. And we're in this like, who's right, who's wrong view of life, rather than actually back to. 

Roslyn Ranse: The mindset. 

Glin Bayley: Exactly the mindset of what's our objective? So why did we come together to have this conversation in the first place? What's your end objective from this? What's my end objective from this? And where do our interests in our our personal objectives actually align with the opportunity we might have with each other to unlock those? So it becomes a very different conversation and fears are common. Like, when I think about sales, you know, there's so many people that will like not even like the idea of selling or pitching their services. And that's a fear, again, because we think we're trying to make people do things that they don't want to do. 

And the same with negotiation, oh, someone's going to make me do something or say yes to something that I don't want to say yes to. And there's that fear of being exploited of being manipulated, or feeling that negotiation itself is a manipulation of someone else. And because of all of that negative connotation, because of all of the meaning-making we've attributed to one word, you know, negotiation. The way we show up is influenced by what we make something mean. And if you look at the different dictionary definition of negotiation is simply “people coming together to reach an agreement.” I mean, like how often do you get together with someone to reach an agreement? It can be, “Hey, do you want to meet at the coffee shop next Tuesday for a coffee at 10 o'clock?” You know, where are we meeting? Like you're doing it all the time and there's subtle forms of negotiating but you're doing them all the time. And once you start to realise that negotiation isn't a debate, it isn't an argument because nobody wins in arguments and debates are pointless, you know, because you're not trying to win a position. It's about seeking to reach an agreement with someone, well, what's the agreement you can reach? What's going to be interesting to the other person? And what's going to be interesting to you so that you can align on those interests to reach that agreement?

Roslyn Ranse: I love that you've just put all of that in together. Because right. Back at the beginning, you said it's about wanting to work together. So you both two parties, or it could even be more than that. But hearing your story, right at the beginning with working for the bread company. 

Glin Bayley: Yes. 

Roslyn Ranse: How you had to negotiate so that everybody was happy at the end of the day. So any fears that come up, you, you're actually not in that place? It's a, it's a different place with the negotiation and wanting to work together. But what can you do to meet the alignments of each person? I was just thinking about, what did I negotiate this morning? What I wanted to do for dinner tonight with friends? Or was it? Do I just tell them?

Glin Bayley: In my opinion, I'm telling you, this is what's happening, in which case, I'm taking everything I won, it's seven o'clock, and it's gonna be at this restaurant. And here's how long we're staying out. Or it could have been, you know, a dialogue around what are you most interested in getting out tonight? In which case, where's the best place for us to meet? You know, what time suits for everyone? And we do it, we do do it. But we were just not aware that that is some form of, you know, personal negotiations that we're having all the time.

Roslyn Ranse: That's true. And hearing about family, I'm just running a whole lot of scenarios through my head at the moment of the last 24 hours. Did I negotiate, don't I just tell Jackson that he needed to clean his teeth? No, I don't think that that's going to be in negotiation with my boss. 

Glin Bayley: No, I mean, why not be. Absolutely.

Roslyn Ranse: When it comes to business. And I really wanted to talk about the travel and tourism industry and where things have shifted over the last few years that now what I'm seeing more than ever is that consumers are coming to a professional Travel Advisor for their expertise, their knowledge, you know, being able to negotiate, as you say, to get the best deal for them, so that they can go on these incredible experiences that they're looking forward to do. Now, not everybody uses a travel professional. But what we're seeing on the back end is that our commission payments, or the way that we may have previously been paid in the past is starting to dry up in certain areas. And so what the travel professional is now having to do or think about is valuing themselves, their expertise and their knowledge. And being able to negotiate or communicate with a consumer to say, “This is what I do. This is my wheelhouse of knowledge and experience.” But how can we become a negotiator with a consumer, when they may not have had to pay for expertise previously, in a certain field, like I know, in the finance field, you would expect to pay for somebody to manage your finances. In a legal firm, you would expect for somebody to be putting paint, you pay them to put together documentation. So it's something very new for the travel industry on a large scale. People have been doing it for years. But on a large scale. If you've got any tips advice, like what can we do? 

Glin Bayley: Yeah, it sounds to me that the market is shifting. So if I understand correctly, as a consumer, using a travel agent, you may not have paid a fee for a travel agent services because the travel agent makes their money and income from the back end commissions of the services that are pulled together that the consumer then ultimately buys. Now, if that's shifting, it's now on, you're essentially becoming a consumer b2c relationship of value exchange with each other. Whereas it's been a one way value give before so I give you value and I exchange it with someone in the back end. 

Roslyn Ranse: That's a great analogy. 

Glin Bayley: Now directly with you. So I'm going to give you something but I'm gonna take something from you as well, it's going to be it's a very different dynamic, right.? So the first thing is to recognize that as an industry, as travel agents, you've been givers, right? And you've been givers without taking anything other than, you know, having maybe a taking a testimonial for your good services and the acknowledgement and the “thanks” but outside of that you're not really receiving anything from the consumer. Not at all potentially complaints. Or can you solve my problem? And can can you get me out of this pickle that I've managed to get myself and you're on the receiving end of asks. And the consumer is the one that's getting all have the support and the service. And the person the travel agent in the middle is hasn't been the one that's been receiving from the consumer any value exchange right?

Roslyn Ranse: Yes, that is correct.

Glin Bayley: Other than that is a great time. Yeah. But a testimonial up and recommend me to your friends or your family, right?

Roslyn Ranse: That is a bonus if somebody is able to recommend you to a friend or colleague or even write you a testimonial, because as advisors, we may not even have asked for that. As you say that’s the “ask”.

Glin Bayley: That’s a “give.” So we giving, giving, giving, giving.

Roslyn Ranse: Is that a personality thing, as well? l mean from your experiences, is that?

Glin Bayley: There types, there's types of negotiators that are definitely giving-oriented, for sure. So like there's an you'll get the opportunity to do. At the end, I'll share it in negotiation profiling type that a quiz that you can do to see what kind of negotiator you are. But you've got people that ultimately either try to avoid negotiation, you know, and therefore trying to protect their current position by not even engaging in a dialogue. You've got people that are givers in negotiation, you've got people that are sharers, you know, let's, let's compromise. Let's split it, let's, let's be fair, you've got those that are takers in a negotiation, that it's all about self and what do I want? And then you've got people that are creators and the creators focus around, you know, how can we both create something together, that creates a winning together opportunity? Now, if the majority of and I can't speak? Because I don't know the answer, but 

Roslyn Ranse: I think we should definitely try to track this, can we track this on our way through the back end of your system or somehow? 

Glin Bayley: Yeah. They if they do I'd happily be able to go from the back end as a context, you know, what are you getting in terms of profile of, of negotiation type with with Travel Agent Achievers.

Roslyn Ranse: For the industry. 

Glin Bayley: Yeah, for the industry, because it can give you a view because if you are givers, then by default, you're giving value away, you're not creating it. So back to your question around, where's the rub gonna be? It's not even so much the tips of what can I do, the first thing you've got to do is to recognize the value you've been given before, it's just been one way. And now you've got to change the dynamic so that you have to get comfortable with receiving value for, for what you do. So the first question I'd ask is, do you feel the service that you provide to the consumer is worth paying for? 

Roslyn Ranse: Absolutely. 

Glin Bayley: What value do you see in what you do? And can you reconcile that someone paying you for that is a worthy thing for you to receive? Because if people don't feel that what they do is worthy of the value exchanged, then the way they show up is still going to be what can I give? And I see this when people focus on pricing. It's like, yeah, let me give you maximum amount of, of stuff, so that I can charge a minimum amount, but so that I feel good about what I've done. And actually, what we've got to flip the script around is to say, well, what's going to make the consumer feel good, because you're focused on price. But if you were focused on value, it'd be a very different dialogue. 

And if I just pause to explain the distinctions, right, so you've got cost. So how much does a flight cost to the travel agent? Right? So that's how much it's costing you. And then you've got the price that if you know, a consumer goes directly to the the flight company, they'll get the same cost, but and the price is determined, or the cost I should say, is the let me say the airlines cost of service, right. So they will put a margin on it. So it's how much does it cost Qantas. Let me use as an example to fly someone from Sydney to New York, X amount. How much is the price of that? Well, that price of that is going to be more than what it costs Qantas because Qantas are going to make a margin on that. And there might be some part of that margin that goes to the travel agent, but sounds like going forward, the industry is changing and there is no margin. So there's Qantas aren't giving the travel agent any benefit for choosing Qantas for their consumer. And then so that's the price and the price is either set by the market. So Qantas is comparing its flights costs versus prices versus Virgin and other international airlines. And it's also seeing and sensing what the customer is willing to pay, right? So that's when you think about pricing policies, you've got cost of what it actually costs to make the service or product, the price that you charge for it. But how are you is something really different, some value isn't the price someone pays for something, it's the benefit that they're getting from that service, or that product. And value could be time, like, the shortest time from Sydney to New York is what I value. So I'm willing to pay a price that's higher to have the value of a short time to travel, or the convenience might be more important to me. So I'm, I'm willing to have a flight that goes direct, I'm paying more, because I don't want to stop off in. 

Roslyn Ranse: A different destination,

Glin Bayley: In a different destination for a few hours and lose time, but also the faff of getting off a flight and getting back on, I just rather go direct. So the convenience of that. But it also could be a need, right? So what's the need for someone who's booking, you know, a trip or a flight, if the need is to get back for a sick relative, guess what they're willing to pay? Whatever it takes, if it means they get to see their relative alive before their their last breath is taken, right? So if there's a need, that's important, that's driving that that could be a value describe, you know, asset that you go, Okay, well, we're guaranteeing you get to your loved ones when you need to see them the most. 

And if it's the sense of the circumstance, you know. So the circumstance of COVID highlighted how many people were stranded, having booked flights, etc, that they couldn't then contact airlines to get credits back or get their money back or, you know, all of the waiting on on calls, but eight hours at a time to try and get someone to speak to. So the circumstance of when problems hit the fan, that actually an agent can be your person to support, that's all value, right? Like, you've just eliminated stress, you've eliminated a lack of certainty, because you've told me, here's what you can expect, you're going to get feedback by this point, you're going to know the answer by this point, what's happening in the market now is there's X many flights going out all of this time. So that communication loop is something, again, that's valuable, right to, to the consumer consumer that's buying, you're buying your service. 

So I think when your team and the travel agents in your community start thinking about, first and foremost, am I seeing value in what I do to give the service that I do to the person that's buying it? Because if I do, then I've got a better chance of getting my value compensated and a value exchange occurring? Then if I don't.

Then secondly, I want to really understand is, am I focused on price, you know, “oh, you've got to pay me $200,” which is a price for my service, or am I focused on value, because if I'm focused on value, then by understanding the value that I provide, I actually talk to the value that I provide. And then the price is what is payable for the value that's provided. So when a consumer is, you know, in a conversation, when you're first sitting down with them is saying, “Here's what I'm looking for,” maybe is having a list of the key things that you know, are valuable to consumers. So, what's more important to you? Is it budget? Is it the experience that you have is it the, the time window that you're travelling in? Where is the value generated and and for the team to be starting to ask questions around what is the real need and interest in the person who's sitting opposite them actually sitting because if we're in our own head, and we're going, oh my god, this trip is going to be really expensive. And I'm going to add all these packages on and it's going to add up to X amount of money. And I'm gonna say, and for my services, it's $200 or whatever it might be. You're in your own head going all the price, the price, the price is ticking up, the cost is adding up for them, as opposed to everyone's gonna say price is important to them. That's natural because we all want to get the best deals, right?

Roslyn Ranse: Yeah, we all want the best deal. 

Glin Bayley: Right. The best way you can deliver value is by, you know, having someone feel comfortable about the price comes from them seeing the value, but the way they see the value is going to be something that they've got to work for, right? And if I, if I pull it back for a minute, just to connect the dots if you like, let's zoom out. So you want to focus on value. And in the negotiation, because you're having a dialogue where you're wanting to reach a shared agreement. You want the person who's sitting opposite you to feel what emotion by the end of the deal, what do you want them to feel by the end of the deal? If I was to ask you, Ros

Roslyn Ranse: How do I want them to, I want them to feel at ease? I want them to feel relaxed, reassured. 

Glin Bayley: Yeah. 

Roslyn Ranse: To know that they've made the right decision by coming to me. 

Glin Bayley: You want them to ultimately, exactly what you've described. You want them to feel satisfied?

Roslyn Ranse: Yes.

Glin Bayley: “I’m so satisfied that I came to Ros.” The whole process was easy. I got clarity, I've got everything I need. I walk away from that deal. Feeling satisfied. I mean, feel satisfied, then I'm not going to quibble on things, right. But if I'm feeling dissatisfied, guess what's going to happen, it's going to get a little bit more pointy, it's going to get a little bit more conflict in nature, because I'm not left feeling satisfied on this deal. And if I'm not leave, leaving the deal satisfied, then there's going to be an itch I want to scratch around around it, or I might walk out and choose to go to see someone else instead. Okay?

Roslyn Ranse: Yeah. 

Glin Bayley: So the objective in any negotiation is to how do you leave the other party feeling satisfied in that interaction. The issue is, though, if I said to you, if you are the consumer, and I and I'm the travel agent, and I'm probably going to back this up, because I’m not a travel agent.

Roslyn Ranse:  This is fun, Glin.

Glin Bayley: If I was to say, you know, you came in, and you'd said, “Glin, I want a holiday to Hawaii, I want it to be less than $2,000. I want that to include my flight, accommodation for three nights. And I want, you know, trips and tours also included in it.” And it's this big shopping list of everything I want. 

Roslyn Ranse: I’m like, if you’re inside here right now. And just so everybody knows that’s listening. 

Glin Bayley: I have no idea. 

Roslyn Ranse: Yeah. It’s not gonna happen, Glin. Yeah,

Glin Bayley: It's not gonna happen, right. So it’s totally not gonna happen. But imagine. 

Roslyn Ranse: Imagine. Yes.

Glin Bayley: If I was able to create that. And literally, within a few moments of them asking, I'm like, we have everything I've got it got for you. And it's all, it's all available. And you can book right now and sign right here. And we can get this done. If I was sitting on the opposite end of that, I'm like, “Oh, that was a bit too easy.” You know, like, perhaps she's got more up her sleeve, then I thought, because if she has been able to get me that deal for this budget, maybe I could have got more for less of a budget, or ask her even more, because she made that way too easy for me to get what I wanted, right? 

Roslyn Ranse: Yeah. 

Glin Bayley: And that's the, this is the dance of negotiation is as humans, guess what we value? We value things that we worked hard for. And we don't value things that come easy. So if everything in a service orientation is always about how do I make it the easiest experience right up front? The value expectation comes, comes down because I'm like, “Okay, well, I now need more because you've set the bar high for what you've given me without me even working for it. Now, what can I get if I worked for it?” Right?

Roslyn Ranse: Oh, it's so interesting. Yes, so true.

Glin Bayley: So ask, ask questions around that. Because if there's anything that I can help clarify, because I can easily talk around this subject, but I want to make it meaningful for you and the and the team that are going to be listening to this. When you listen to that, what questions arise for you and go, “Okay, I've got things firing off left, right and centre here that I really need to clean up.”

Roslyn Ranse: As I, as I listen, I asked those questions and I'm taking plenty of notes here. So for instance, the objective is how do you leave the other party satisfied? That is a really interesting word. Because I think as travel advisors, we think, “Oh, we've done all of these things.” Coming back to the giver, coming back to the sharer that, you know that we avoid negotiating, because we just want to make the other person happy. But also our inherent passion is to curate experiences and help people explore this incredible planet that we live on to how they want it to be not every, like, no, booking is the same. Everybody is different. And I was just having the conversation this morning with a client. And I suggested an alternative to what she wanted. And she said, I hadn't even thought about that. So would you consider that's part of the negotiation dance there that I'm suggesting different things to what she may have even asked for?

Glin Bayley: Yeah, you're increasing the value. But it's also what you're listening for is what's actually important to it. Because what people say is important, versus what's actually important when, when you tease them out, are often quite different things. So people come in with a list of everything they want. And when you really start to dig underneath that actually, what they really want is something quite, quite different to that. And it's that listening, that you're applying, but it's back to that satisfaction piece is, bring it back to the the fear around pricing, and like charging for my services. If I'm to ask at the moment, when does that discussion happen? When someone's already come into your office or whether they've called pulled up? Is it happening at an inquiry phase? Is it happening after you've already said, Here's the list of wonderful things I can provide you based on your criteria, and then my fee is this. When is that dialogue happening?

Roslyn Ranse: This is where to become? Yeah, this is where it's become really messy right now, because it is so new to the whole industry. As I mentioned earlier, I think there's some people that have been doing it for quite a while. And for them, it's very natural, and they bring it up when it's right for them. But it's still quite a secretive thing. You know, oh, so and so charges this amount of money, and oh, the next person charges this amount of money. But the whole process of actually making sure that whether everybody in the industry is all doing the same thing, or whether it's all done at the same time. I can't say that that is streamlined at all. And I think there are some people who are putting it in their marketing paraphernalia. So right up front and saying, “This is what we do to curate this experience for you. And this is the price.” So coming back to the price, because that's a language thing as well that we are all struggling with. Is it called a professional service? Is it called a fee, but a fees a negative thing? Is it a price? There's that whole conversation as well. 

But then you've got those that during the inquiry phase, or are we charging for a say a consultation, and let's jump on a call, this is going to cost you for my time, I will share the value and my expertise and knowledge. And then if we decide to move forward, because we like each other, then it will be the next step. 

There are others that are putting it into the package and saying, you know, here's the list items, here's your flights, here's your hotels, here's your tour, here's your cruise. And there's my little fee at the bottom or there's my fee on the bottom. Or there are other people that are saying, it's going to cost you $10,000 to put all of this together and incorporating that fee in there without actually sharing that there is that exchange of value for time, knowledge and expertise. So it's really a messy thing at the moment that nobody is doing it the same. Everybody is charging something different. And it's all down to that level of comfort and self worth, I think. Who's doing what and how they're doing it. Are they hiding it? Are they putting it straight out there for the world to see. And there's also, which I don't like there is also in the market people saying, Oh, I can't believe that they put that on there, like that's out there on their table of fees, or that's out there on their marketing paraphernalia that makes me look bad. Like, I can't believe they're doing this. So there's still, yeah, this really messy transition. But it's all happening. And whether they are also even charging it like a subscription model. So I will book and curate these experiences or up to this amount, which I love. And it's going to cost this so there is that value exchange. And that works really well for companies and different people who are travelling consistently because they don't have to think about it all the time. It is, it's quite a messy area at the moment, which is why I really wanted to talk about it because advisors are all in different situations and not really knowing how to move forward. I want to do it and I have to do it because otherwise my business isn't gonna stay open. 

Glin Bayley: Correct, Yeah.

Roslyn Ranse: There's so many questions with it?

Glin Bayley: Oh, so much. And I think each choice is going to be unique to each individual's personal objective around what they want their businesses there to do, and what role their business and their profitability plays in their life. You know, so what are you creating? So back to that, you know, that personal alignment of vision, where am I heading? What is this business goal? Why, why am I in the game in the first place? And therefore, what do I need to fulfil in order to reach that end game? And I think from the customer’s journey perspective

Roslyn Ranse: Like you said before, it's the end game. So for your own experience, your endgame was to get to Australia.

Glin Bayley: Correct. So I made it happen, yes, on where I was going, and everything that needed to happen in between that, and even now, you know, here, the focus on the business direction, is that, okay, what do I want this to stand for? And I want to create more businesses that are negotiating value in a win together way so that I can change the way negotiation itself is perceived, right? Because people think it's positive, it's bad. So my, my end game is that how can I? How can I help more organisations make more but through creating a more sustainable way people negotiate value, and see value? So you've got to have your own why, and what's, what's driving you behind that. 

But I would say from a negotiation perspective, when you think about the psychology of negotiation, people are you've got you've got to identify where the value is, first and foremost, right? So you, you know, identify where is the value is, where is it for the customer. And then you might do this upfront at a more holistic level to say, based on you know, pick one demographic, it might be direct to consumer, rather than the regular travellers that could be honest subscription model, but say, if you work at one-off transactions with with consumers, that one-off transaction means that ultimately, you may never see them again. And you may see them again, if you do a good enough service that they want to repeat, buy from you, in a year, two years, however long it might be right. But when I look at the journey around, how do you from a psychological perspective, prime someone, you don't prime them after the event? It's called priming, because you prime them prior around expectations, right? So if, for example, when we're thinking about positioning, if I was to say, hey, this, this pen is made in Switzerland, what do you think it's worth? What's your perception of its value? Based on what I've just said? It's not made in Switzerland.

Roslyn Ranse: I'd be thinking immediately, quality, durability. Yeah, those are the first two things that come to mind.

Glin Bayley: Right. So when you're thinking about your travel agency brand, how can you get the connotation of premium value? With the language you use to describe yourself? I says, right, because using positioning language that has an association with quality and confidence, of commitment, all of that is going to help the psychology of someone going oh, well, you know, this is a German-engineered something, or a Swiss something, or, you know, something that I've got a connotation and like ability, with quality assurance, all the things that link to travel, you know, so what do people value most is, you know, the security of being able to get there on time or, you know, have had their luggage show up, or the tours happen in the way that they anticipate. It's their memories that they're creating, right? So thinking about what can conjure up that. So that's, that's one thing in the priming of the journey. 

The second thing is if there's, there's the psychology of anchoring, so if you're the first person to get your price for all your services out, you can get to anchor in the consumers mind that that's something they've got to that's what they've got to do, right in order to play with you. But if that anchor is linked to value, then you're like, well, that's a no brainer. Like course, no problem, as opposed to the icky if you're uncomfortable in your own worthiness around positioning your value. Everything you're going to do is trying to sell your value, but if I'm trying to sell you something, guess what I'm doing? I'm highlighting that I'm not feeling worthy of you buying because I'm having to sell from you. Sell to you, I should say. And we all know what it feels like to be sold to right. And it feels like someone's in a weaker position, it feels like they need us more than we need them. And then they sell us this, this and they sell us this. And we you know, experience it in furniture shots, right? You go in, and what can I get you? And we can do this? And I'm like, Oh, just leave me alone. Right? 

Roslyn Ranse: Just want to look.

Glin Bayley: Yeah, just want to look. And if you have a conversation with me about my interests at a genuine level, without trying to sell me all these features and benefits, maybe you actually might learn what's really important to me, right? But if, if you're focusing on selling, you miss the listening, and you're just trying to get your position because you're concerned about going well, what if they don't buy? And what if they don't want to pay my fee? But if you prime that upfront with the language you use, you know, everything we do here is based on the value exchange for that value exchange, we charge X. But what you get in that, is this, this and this. Now, is there any aspect of value that we're providing that you don't see as valuable to you and let's have a look at what that is, and what else we can amplify to create more value for you. And I think the thing, the distinction about prices, $200 to you, and $200 to me, is the same value, right? Because it's $200.

Roslyn Ranse: $200. 

Glin Bayley: But if your tune, if me paying you too $200 could get me an experience that I would never otherwise be able to access. And it means that I have an enriching memory with my family across the other side of the world that is priceless, than paying $200 is worth it. Right? And I think that's what we've got to recognize is it's not the price, it's what what is someone getting from the experience that's really deeply important to them. So I be certainly in the camp of zooming all the way out, I understand your business. First and foremost, what business are you in? Are you in the business of giving? Are you in the business of value creation with, with your consumers and your suppliers? Because if you're in the business of value creation, you can't it's not just about what you do, it's how you be with everything you do. So it's, you know, I'm always looking for value with people, whether that's a supplier or a customer, because I want to create something with each other. So we start listening for what's valuable to them, you know, to, you know, is it that that hotel, what's most important to that hotel is getting occupants in their restaurant, or their bars because they make so much margin in their in their alcohol sales, or is it actually booking a particular type of room, because there's, there's more that comes with a family suite than a, you know, a junior couple suite or whatever it might be, I'm making this up. But when we start thinking about value creation, all the way through the chain, we start looking for it in every interaction, excuse my technical fair, every interaction that we have. And once you've got an understanding of where value sits for someone, you can trade something that's of high value to them with something that's low cost to you. And that's what we're trying to do all the time is, if I give you something that's high value to you, but as low cost me, the feeling of win and satisfaction you're going to get is going to be much greater. But if I get you to pay something that's low in cost to you, but it's of massive high value to me, then again, it's so it's a win together. It's a win-win exchange, because we're trading and exchanging the things that are most valuable to both of us. And we're both giving the lowest cost element to it. Because we've traded the value that's the most important part.

Roslyn Ranse: The Value Negotiator, Glin. As I said right at the beginning, I could sit and talk to you for hours. This is so helpful. I've written so many notes here from identifying where the value is priming and positioning language, you know, everything that we do is a value exchange and to really come back to yourself with what you offer your clients and how it is a win-win situation. 

Thank you so much for sharing everything. I am going to finish here because I would love for people to really connect with you and I think I'm going to have the conversation with Glin offline everybody just so that you know that we can absolutely either get Glin back here have her inside The Achievers to talk about this to run some sort of a workshop, that we can all get together and learn, implement, and really take action on it, because I know that Glin has a program where she walks you through step by step, how to negotiate and how to have this value exchange, so that it is a win-win for everyone, and you get to practise it live. Even though it might feel scary, and weird and awkward and all the rest of it for the, you know, if you haven't done this before, I know that Glin is a very safe person and trustworthy and such a beautiful heart. 

So Glin, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and expertise with us today. How can people find you, connect with you? And also let's talk about the what type of negotiator Are you that we will link to in the show notes for everybody?

Glin Bayley: No worries. So the best place to find me is LinkedIn. So it's Glin Bayley LinkedIn, or search The Value Negotiator. So I regularly post tips and content on negotiation there. And my website, The Value Negotiator, you can reach out and that's where the quiz is hosted on. So you can either find it on LinkedIn or the website, and then you can spend five minutes no more, it's free to do take the test, it's 12 questions. And you get to determine what type of negotiator you are. And it gives you insights into the light side of that behaviour and the shadow side of that behaviour. So what's helping you and what's hindering you, and so what you can do to shift things in a negotiation that can really help you. So I would, I would encourage you to do that just so that you can get some tips and tricks on how best to support your current style, and just be aware of it in the first instance. 

Roslyn Ranse: That's it. Awareness is the first step and then we can do something about it. Thank you so much for being here today on the Travel Agent, Achievers podcast. I appreciate you your time, your knowledge, your expertise, and also just sharing with us to help us all improve our business, but also improve ourselves as we move forward. And I think that this is a timely subject, but one that we will continue as well as well. So thank you so much.

Glin Bayley: You’re most welcome. Thanks a lot.

Roslyn Ranse: All right, everybody. Well, well, as I said, so many notes that I have taken down today, Glin, isn't she just amazing? I know that you will agree with me. So I am looking forward to working with her more on this whole topic. As I said, it is something that I know in the industry, we are all struggling with right now. And we feel as though you know we need to do something to change our business, but at the same time, not sure how to do it. So negotiation isn't a bad word. I want you to remember that and we'll also remember that you can find Glin at thevaluenegotiator.com. I will link to everything and the resources in our show notes. Have an awesome day and don't forget to value yourself. Alright, talk to you soon. Bye for now.